peterbirks | Out of the SJ

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Out of the SJ

How about this hand from the tourney tonight.

Blinds 25-50. You are UTG+1 with 2350 (starting stack of 2500) and pick up AsKd. UTG limps. You limp. MP1 limps, MP2 limps, MP3 limps, passed round to SB who calls. BB declines the option. Pot 350.

Flop: Ah Ac 5d.

UTG checks. You check. MP1 checks. MP2 bets 100. MP2 had 2850 at start of hand, so he has you covered. Passed round to you. You call. Pot 550.

Turn 8d.

You check. MP2 bets 200

MP2 has been an active player so far, but you have not had many hands to go on, so he might just have been getting good cards.

What do you do?

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

That's not a particularily strong turn bet considering the pot size. You are likely ahead and would like more money to go into the pot. A raise here to 600 certainly wouldn't get him to fold Ax but would get him to fold smaller pocket pairs. His weakness however may be due to the strength of his hand, say 55. Or it may be due to the weakness of his hand, say KK, but he just can't bring himself not to bet it. I would raise to 600 and see where it goes from there.

First of all I use up a useful proportion of my available time wondering what the hell I was doing limping UTG+1 with AKo, which is not a hand I especially want to play multiway against a range of limpers. Not in a tourney. Or was I expecting a raise that didn't come?

But since I did that and I got here, I'm going to have to go on appearances, I think: if the other guy has been active then perhaps he's prepared to take stabs at offering a home to unloved pots.

After all, what's beating me right now? A5 or 55. Don't forget that he's probably wondering what I'm calling with after an EP limp. What might he be making smallish bets with? A5, 55, Ax or a mid-to-low pair. Pretty broad. Wish I'd raised preflop.

Well, I'm no expert but I can't see myself laying down trip Aces with top kicker. Even if he has a boat already I have an out or two.

I'm going to operate on the assumption that I'm likely to be ahead here. I'm running out of time: call? raise? Call. And lead out with about 500 on the river, hoping for at least a call, at best a push, which I'd interpret as Ax. I hope his x didn't pair on the river.

If I'm beat, I'm beat. There will be another tournament. There is always another tournament.

limping with AKo from early is absolutely fine. You want people playing Ax preflop because you will bust them all over the place when an ace flops. Raising preflop from early stops the suited aces coming in. I'm a big fan of limping with AK from early.

Well the limp certainly disguises the hand and sets up the postflop entertainment. I suspect that I'm not strong enough post-flop to feel comfortable with the consequences. Suspect, hell. I know I'm not strong enough. Not in this company anyway, against most low buyin muppets, maybe.

The problem with the early stage of a tournament is that any raise you put in has to be fairly lumpy, else you give players behind you implied odds. This is particularly the case in the Stan James/Mob tournaments, where you have a relatively deep stack and relatively long levels (15 minutes).

You may recall some discussions a while ago (they took place on Gutshot and on Chris Fargas' site) on players going out of tournaments in the small blind with AQ after they raised pre-flop "to thin the field". This matter was in my mind when I limped. I'm not looking to double through or go broke here. I'm looking to win 500 or lose 50 or, at the worst, 250.

That said, if a raise comes in from, say, the button, I am willing to reraise all-in. If the raise comes from one of the blinds, I'm willing to call (he is the one who is OOP, after all)

The limp is also something of a defence against the raise, call from behind, reraise all-in from the Blind, what do you do now? Well, you call and pray, but the chances are you will see something like AK v AK v a pair. Not where you want to be.

Now, I ought to add that this was the last of the Hendon Mob tournaments, which made things complicated, as we were going for points (to qualify for the final -- first prize the holiday in Vegas), plus bounties (four mobsters in the game with $100 each on their head) as well as the prize money. This made the tourney interesting (in game terms) in that different players had different agendas. However since it was treble points, nearly all the players had points in mind as well as cash. The top 20 scored points (going up in steady steps from 20th to 1st), while the top 10 (of 60 runners) made the money.

In this sense, it was not "tomorrow there will be another tournament". It was an odd combination of ordinary tournament and super-satellite (and, to make things more complex, your starting chips on the final table were proportionate to your total points for the year).

Having said all that, none of it made any difference to the way I played this hand, although it might have impacted some later plays.

PJ

I hear what you're saying about implied odds but in this case, making it 200 is 10% of your stack and no one's getting the implied odds they need against you.

It's also less of an issue with AK than it is with a big pair, because it's harder for someone to make a hidden big hand _when you hit_ .

And finally, with a limper already, you're more likely to be in position if you get a caller than not. I would just raise.

Andy.

Don't understand your first sentence, Andy. Who is making it 200 and when?

Also, in sentence two, what is less of an issue than it is with a big pair?

Also, in sentence three, are you talking about the best action pre-flop, on the flop, or on the turn. And how much should the raise be?

Pete

I think I've figured out your sentence two. However, let's ignore the pre-flop action, for the moment. I know that it's an interesting area, and I could easily have stopped the description pre-flop and said "do you raise here or do you limp?" (but I chose not to). Part of the reason was that it created too complex a "tree" for later events. I like a limp here, although I know that other people like a raise. But it's not the point I wanted to be at issue.

Pete

Clearly it was too early for me to express myself, erm, clearly !

1) I'm talking solely about the pre-flop decision. If you make it 200, instead of limping, then no one has implied odds to call you.

2) In any case, giving people implied odds is less of an issue with AK than it is with a big pair.

3) Pre-flop. Raise to 200 looks ok.

At the point where you pose the question, on the turn, it's all situational. Depends how you see him, how you think he sees you, etc etc. I'd do my best to get as much money in the pot as soon as possible. If you're behind, ohdearhowsadnevermind.

Andy.

I'm not looking to double through or go broke here. I'm looking to win 500 or lose 50 or, at the worst, 250.

I'm good with that - the old can't-win-it-here-but-can-lose-it thing.

this was the last of the Hendon Mob tournaments, which made things complicated

Ah. There's a meta-game. Or games. "complicated" probably doesn't begin to do it justice. I'd be keen to avoid committing my entire stack here, which is most likely best achieved by finding a way to appear willing to do exactly that. I don't want to put my opponent in the position of having to respond to a pot-committing bet. I think I'm calling the 200 turn bet now, which reduces the chances of terminal nonsense at the end.

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Out of the SJ

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On the pre-flop limping

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Re: On the pre-flop limping

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