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Some Limit Hands
May. 21st, 2005 08:19 amSome Hold 'em hands: In the first, I thought I'd redress the balance on my "aggression doesn't work" tirade by showing that, against a certain (and, in my games, rare) type of player, it can pay off. However, I still think that this kind of play is more suited to short-handed play:
In the second, I'm really asking a question: what would you do? Anyone who thinks that there is a right or wrong answer here is a fool. But it's one of the most frequent scenarios that come up in Hold 'em (it's always puzzled me that most Hold 'em books in Limit spend excessive amounts of time on situations that do not occur very often. Then again, that's fine by me.) and one where your decision is nearly always a fine line. I guess that the EV one way or the other isn't that great. But, since it is a decision that comes up a large number of times, getting it right more often than you get it wrong is important.
In the third, well, OK, I'm showing a hand that I was pleased with. As I pointed out, I've not felt that I've been on my 'A' game (even when I've been winning), and this has most blatantly evidenced itself on the river. Although the decision here seems trivial, it made a difference of two big bets.
That's the thing about river play. Although the situation arises less often than decisions on earlier streets, there is no "EV" as such. If you fail to make a bet on the river with a winning hand that your oppoenet would have called, you haven't lost 0.7 of a big bet. You've lost one big bet. If you just call when he would have called your raise (and lost), then that's another big bet. No "oh, he might have outdrawn me" excuses. Yoo are dealing in areas of "this is how much this decision cost me". Since you are looking for 2BBs an hour maximum at this level (well, to be frank, 1BB), just one of those wrong decisions an hour can make the difference between a long-term profit and a long-term loss.
So: Hand One.
$5/$10 Hold'em
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: hegemoony ( $263.5 )
Seat 3: vanness_crew ( $200 )
Seat 4: Phantom1299 ( $216 )
Seat 1: matterceg ( $436 )
Seat 8: RabbitHump ( $218 )
Seat 10: jtjt7474 ( $359 )
Seat 5: NETwo ( $253 )
Seat 7: Birks ( $424 )
Seat 6: Night_Knight ( $400 )
Seat 9: grh333 ( $215 )
vanness_crew posts small blind [$2].
Phantom1299 posts big blind [$5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Birks [ Qh Th ]
NETwo folds.
Birks raises [$10].
RabbitHump folds.
grh333 folds.
jtjt7474 folds.
hegemoony folds.
vanness_crew folds.
Phantom1299 calls [$5].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5h, Jd, 6c ]
Phantom1299 checks.
Birks bets [$5].
Phantom1299 raises [$10].
Now, Phantom has shown himself to be slightly loose, but distinctly aggressive. Against most players in the afternoon, I would take this to indicate at least something (usually a pocket pair or a hand like QJ), but Phantom is capable of doing it on anything. So:-
Birks raises [$10].
Phantom1299 calls [$5].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Tc ]
Well, that was nice, but it made no difference to what I was gong to do anyway.
Phantom1299 checks.
Birks bets [$10].
Phantom1299 folds.
A fine example of how this play is meant to work in theory, but rarely does (for me, anyway), in practice. Perhaps I have the wrong table image...
Hand 2:
Here's a "what do you do" scenario. I think that the question here might better be phrased as "what percentage of the time do you fold, what percentage do you call, and what percentage do you raise?"
$5/$10 Hold'em - Saturday, May 21, 01:55:31 EDT 2005
Table Galaxy (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 4: winwin05 ( $563 )
Seat 5: bucfan7 ( $388 )
Seat 7: BeBob ( $428.5 )
Seat 9: Luis_Firpo ( $296 )
Seat 1: tomskills ( $117.75 )
Seat 3: KaiKan27 ( $166 )
Seat 10: Birks ( $434 )
Seat 2: HREvsPothole ( $199 )
Seat 6: Irganox ( $90 )
Seat 8: Drunk51 ( $245 )
tomskills posts small blind [$2].
HREvsPothole posts big blind [$5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Birks [ Qd Ah ]
KaiKan27 folds.
winwin05 folds.
bucfan7 folds.
Irganox folds.
BeBob folds.
Drunk51 folds.
Luis_Firpo folds.
Birks raises [$10].
tomskills raises [$13].
This guy does not have a large stack, and has been playing very quietly. On the other hand, I have raised on the button and have been getting good cards, so he might think that I am looser than I am. A common strategy these days against potential stealers is to flat-call and then bet out a rag flop. But this guy has reraised me. I really do smell strength here.
HREvsPothole folds.
Birks calls [$5].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8h, 4d, 9s ]
tomskills bets [$5].
Birks folds.
If tomskills has reraised me with any pair Jacks or lower, then I should take off a card here. But if he reraised me with a high pair, or with AK, then I should fold. If I think that this is a blatant resteal from the blind, then I should raise. The question is, what kind of hand would I raise with here, having flat-called the reraise pre-flop? It's the kind of clever-clever thing you might do with AA or KK. But I might be outthinking myself here. If I'm going to try to steal this pot, the best play is probably to flat-call the flop bet and to raise on the turn.
But you can't do this every time. I prefer these kind of plays when it isn't Friday night US time. Early Saturday morning, I have learnt through bitter experience that ABC play is best.
And here is Hand 3, an example of ABC play (with one cunning exception that turned out to win me money).
$5/$10 Hold'em: Table Galaxy (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 4: winwin05 ( $547 )
Seat 5: bucfan7 ( $536 )
Seat 7: BeBob ( $415.5 )
Seat 9: Luis_Firpo ( $312 )
Seat 1: tomskills ( $79.25 )
Seat 3: KaiKan27 ( $145 )
Seat 10: Birks ( $407 )
Seat 2: HREvsPothole ( $155 )
Seat 6: Irganox ( $47.5 )
Seat 8: Drunk51 ( $257 )
KaiKan27 posts small blind [$2].
winwin05 posts big blind [$5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Birks [ As Kd ]
bucfan7 calls [$5].
Irganox calls [$5].
BeBob folds.
Drunk51 folds.
Luis_Firpo folds.
Birks raises [$10].
tomskills folds.
HREvsPothole folds.
KaiKan27 folds.
winwin05 calls [$5].
bucfan7 calls [$5].
Irganox calls [$5].
Most of these players are fairly tight. The one exception is Irganox, a distinctly loos-passive player.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jc, Kh, Tc ]
winwin05 checks.
bucfan7 checks.
Irganox checks.
Birks checks.
I would bet out 99 times in 100 here, and this is the one exception. It could well be negative EV. If I bet, most if not all the other players will take one off the top. Even the small pairs. And every card is going to be a danger card on the turn. Rather than build this pot, I'm more tempted to just call it down. If a real rag comes on the turn and it is checked round to me, then I will bet. If a serious danger card appears and it is checked to me, then I will check.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2c ]
Well, that makes for a potential flush. I'm just calling this down if someone bets.
winwin05 bets [$10].
Paradoxically, this is the man I want to bet most, because he is the one most likely to check if he has hit the flush. And, if there IS a flush out there, then there is likely to be a raise before it gets to me, and I can get away cheaply. My check on the flop has gained the unexpected benefit of generating more information than I would have had if I had bet.
bucfan7 calls [$10].
Irganox folds.
I think that I am in with a chance here. I suspect that bucfan is on a draw and that winwin has something like King with a club. But I'm not confident enough in this read to put in a raise.
Birks calls [$10].
** Dealing River ** [ Ad ]
So, that gives me two-pair, but any queen beats me with a straight.
winwin05 checks.
bucfan7 checks.
Now, decision time. Do I bet for value? To be frank, I can't see a flush or a straight having the skill to check at this point. These people bet at the end because usually they are called. I have showed no aggression in this hand since before the flop, so neither of them can be counting on me to bet. I think I am winning here (possibly against a lower two-pair). Sod it. Go with your guts feeling.
Birks bets [$10].
winwin05 calls [$10].
bucfan7 calls [$10].
Birks shows [ As, Kd ] two pairs, aces and kings.
winwin05 doesn't show [ Kc, 3h ] a pair of kings.
bucfan7 doesn't show [ Ts, Ah ] two pairs, aces and tens.
Birks wins $99.
Very nice. bucfan was in with a bad pair and a gutshot. The ace gave him the lower two pair. In fact I had him drawing totally dead from the flop.
I read winwin dead right. A bad king with a club draw. And I got a call out of him because he does not know whether bucfan will call, and there is a chance that I am punting with something like a pair of nines.
So, the bet for value gained me $20. These are the kind of decisions that make you feel good about your game, not the ones where you hit a draw. I'd been unhappy about a lot of similar decisions that I could see were costing me big bets left, right and centre. This was one where I was "in the zone".
In the second, I'm really asking a question: what would you do? Anyone who thinks that there is a right or wrong answer here is a fool. But it's one of the most frequent scenarios that come up in Hold 'em (it's always puzzled me that most Hold 'em books in Limit spend excessive amounts of time on situations that do not occur very often. Then again, that's fine by me.) and one where your decision is nearly always a fine line. I guess that the EV one way or the other isn't that great. But, since it is a decision that comes up a large number of times, getting it right more often than you get it wrong is important.
In the third, well, OK, I'm showing a hand that I was pleased with. As I pointed out, I've not felt that I've been on my 'A' game (even when I've been winning), and this has most blatantly evidenced itself on the river. Although the decision here seems trivial, it made a difference of two big bets.
That's the thing about river play. Although the situation arises less often than decisions on earlier streets, there is no "EV" as such. If you fail to make a bet on the river with a winning hand that your oppoenet would have called, you haven't lost 0.7 of a big bet. You've lost one big bet. If you just call when he would have called your raise (and lost), then that's another big bet. No "oh, he might have outdrawn me" excuses. Yoo are dealing in areas of "this is how much this decision cost me". Since you are looking for 2BBs an hour maximum at this level (well, to be frank, 1BB), just one of those wrong decisions an hour can make the difference between a long-term profit and a long-term loss.
So: Hand One.
$5/$10 Hold'em
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: hegemoony ( $263.5 )
Seat 3: vanness_crew ( $200 )
Seat 4: Phantom1299 ( $216 )
Seat 1: matterceg ( $436 )
Seat 8: RabbitHump ( $218 )
Seat 10: jtjt7474 ( $359 )
Seat 5: NETwo ( $253 )
Seat 7: Birks ( $424 )
Seat 6: Night_Knight ( $400 )
Seat 9: grh333 ( $215 )
vanness_crew posts small blind [$2].
Phantom1299 posts big blind [$5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Birks [ Qh Th ]
NETwo folds.
Birks raises [$10].
RabbitHump folds.
grh333 folds.
jtjt7474 folds.
hegemoony folds.
vanness_crew folds.
Phantom1299 calls [$5].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5h, Jd, 6c ]
Phantom1299 checks.
Birks bets [$5].
Phantom1299 raises [$10].
Now, Phantom has shown himself to be slightly loose, but distinctly aggressive. Against most players in the afternoon, I would take this to indicate at least something (usually a pocket pair or a hand like QJ), but Phantom is capable of doing it on anything. So:-
Birks raises [$10].
Phantom1299 calls [$5].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Tc ]
Well, that was nice, but it made no difference to what I was gong to do anyway.
Phantom1299 checks.
Birks bets [$10].
Phantom1299 folds.
A fine example of how this play is meant to work in theory, but rarely does (for me, anyway), in practice. Perhaps I have the wrong table image...
Hand 2:
Here's a "what do you do" scenario. I think that the question here might better be phrased as "what percentage of the time do you fold, what percentage do you call, and what percentage do you raise?"
$5/$10 Hold'em - Saturday, May 21, 01:55:31 EDT 2005
Table Galaxy (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 4: winwin05 ( $563 )
Seat 5: bucfan7 ( $388 )
Seat 7: BeBob ( $428.5 )
Seat 9: Luis_Firpo ( $296 )
Seat 1: tomskills ( $117.75 )
Seat 3: KaiKan27 ( $166 )
Seat 10: Birks ( $434 )
Seat 2: HREvsPothole ( $199 )
Seat 6: Irganox ( $90 )
Seat 8: Drunk51 ( $245 )
tomskills posts small blind [$2].
HREvsPothole posts big blind [$5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Birks [ Qd Ah ]
KaiKan27 folds.
winwin05 folds.
bucfan7 folds.
Irganox folds.
BeBob folds.
Drunk51 folds.
Luis_Firpo folds.
Birks raises [$10].
tomskills raises [$13].
This guy does not have a large stack, and has been playing very quietly. On the other hand, I have raised on the button and have been getting good cards, so he might think that I am looser than I am. A common strategy these days against potential stealers is to flat-call and then bet out a rag flop. But this guy has reraised me. I really do smell strength here.
HREvsPothole folds.
Birks calls [$5].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8h, 4d, 9s ]
tomskills bets [$5].
Birks folds.
If tomskills has reraised me with any pair Jacks or lower, then I should take off a card here. But if he reraised me with a high pair, or with AK, then I should fold. If I think that this is a blatant resteal from the blind, then I should raise. The question is, what kind of hand would I raise with here, having flat-called the reraise pre-flop? It's the kind of clever-clever thing you might do with AA or KK. But I might be outthinking myself here. If I'm going to try to steal this pot, the best play is probably to flat-call the flop bet and to raise on the turn.
But you can't do this every time. I prefer these kind of plays when it isn't Friday night US time. Early Saturday morning, I have learnt through bitter experience that ABC play is best.
And here is Hand 3, an example of ABC play (with one cunning exception that turned out to win me money).
$5/$10 Hold'em: Table Galaxy (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 4: winwin05 ( $547 )
Seat 5: bucfan7 ( $536 )
Seat 7: BeBob ( $415.5 )
Seat 9: Luis_Firpo ( $312 )
Seat 1: tomskills ( $79.25 )
Seat 3: KaiKan27 ( $145 )
Seat 10: Birks ( $407 )
Seat 2: HREvsPothole ( $155 )
Seat 6: Irganox ( $47.5 )
Seat 8: Drunk51 ( $257 )
KaiKan27 posts small blind [$2].
winwin05 posts big blind [$5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Birks [ As Kd ]
bucfan7 calls [$5].
Irganox calls [$5].
BeBob folds.
Drunk51 folds.
Luis_Firpo folds.
Birks raises [$10].
tomskills folds.
HREvsPothole folds.
KaiKan27 folds.
winwin05 calls [$5].
bucfan7 calls [$5].
Irganox calls [$5].
Most of these players are fairly tight. The one exception is Irganox, a distinctly loos-passive player.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jc, Kh, Tc ]
winwin05 checks.
bucfan7 checks.
Irganox checks.
Birks checks.
I would bet out 99 times in 100 here, and this is the one exception. It could well be negative EV. If I bet, most if not all the other players will take one off the top. Even the small pairs. And every card is going to be a danger card on the turn. Rather than build this pot, I'm more tempted to just call it down. If a real rag comes on the turn and it is checked round to me, then I will bet. If a serious danger card appears and it is checked to me, then I will check.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2c ]
Well, that makes for a potential flush. I'm just calling this down if someone bets.
winwin05 bets [$10].
Paradoxically, this is the man I want to bet most, because he is the one most likely to check if he has hit the flush. And, if there IS a flush out there, then there is likely to be a raise before it gets to me, and I can get away cheaply. My check on the flop has gained the unexpected benefit of generating more information than I would have had if I had bet.
bucfan7 calls [$10].
Irganox folds.
I think that I am in with a chance here. I suspect that bucfan is on a draw and that winwin has something like King with a club. But I'm not confident enough in this read to put in a raise.
Birks calls [$10].
** Dealing River ** [ Ad ]
So, that gives me two-pair, but any queen beats me with a straight.
winwin05 checks.
bucfan7 checks.
Now, decision time. Do I bet for value? To be frank, I can't see a flush or a straight having the skill to check at this point. These people bet at the end because usually they are called. I have showed no aggression in this hand since before the flop, so neither of them can be counting on me to bet. I think I am winning here (possibly against a lower two-pair). Sod it. Go with your guts feeling.
Birks bets [$10].
winwin05 calls [$10].
bucfan7 calls [$10].
Birks shows [ As, Kd ] two pairs, aces and kings.
winwin05 doesn't show [ Kc, 3h ] a pair of kings.
bucfan7 doesn't show [ Ts, Ah ] two pairs, aces and tens.
Birks wins $99.
Very nice. bucfan was in with a bad pair and a gutshot. The ace gave him the lower two pair. In fact I had him drawing totally dead from the flop.
I read winwin dead right. A bad king with a club draw. And I got a call out of him because he does not know whether bucfan will call, and there is a chance that I am punting with something like a pair of nines.
So, the bet for value gained me $20. These are the kind of decisions that make you feel good about your game, not the ones where you hit a draw. I'd been unhappy about a lot of similar decisions that I could see were costing me big bets left, right and centre. This was one where I was "in the zone".
