Dreams that burn on the horizons of my soul

[peterbirks]

Whilst on holiday I managed to watch part of a really surreal DVD. Perhaps everyone bar me knew this, and that my "revelation" will be met with the chorused exclamation "but how could he not know that?"

The DVD in question was the Russian edition of Final Destination 3. If you watch the Russian version therein, you get genuinely dubbed Russian voices (if you see what I mean). However, if you choose the Polish (or, I guess, the Latvian, Lithuanian and Estonian versions) then you get the original soundtrack, but with the sound reduced to such a level that you can't make out what is bveing said (as with some of those news items you see when abroad that have a foreign language commentary over the top, translating what is being said).

And, above this seriously muted soundtrack, one speaker, the narrator, translates what is being said. In an emotionless manner. As if he were speaking for a news bulletin. I suppose that people could get used to this, but it just seemed utterly bizarre.

+++++++

I looked up my Neteller account this morning and noticed that my withdrawal (submitted January 17) was still "pending". I e-mailed Neteller and am still awaiting a response.


However, I did have a look at the Neteller site, and this is the bad news that I found.

Despite this statement in Neteller's press release (dated January 18th, the day after I put in my submission), that:

"NETELLER customers not resident in the US are not affected at all by this withdrawal from the US market."

we have in the FAQ section the following statement:

"Does this change affect non-US members?

Yes. NETELLER is currently unable to transact with USD bank accounts, regardless of the location of the member. Please contact us to learn more."

So, it looks as if I am screwed. Does this rule apply to withdrawals made prior to January 18th? Who knows?

I had the vague fear that Neteller would close off my deposit access to my US account, and now the worst is confirmed. I'll have to wait for an e-mail from Neteller before I know whether that last transfer went through. But, at the moment, I just have $2.5K sitting in limbo. I can't even see the "cancel" button, which apparently alows you to cancel a "pending" withdrawal.

It's all a very sad end.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

this obviously screws your 'Las Vegas bungalow without currency exchange costs' -plan.

However, Party used to give very good rates (at least for Euros). And since you do play there anyways it could be a convenient way to get monies out.

Aksu

[peterbirks.livejournal.com]

Hi Aksu.

Thanks for the heads-up on that. If the worst comes to the worst, I will simply have to change the currency in which I take my winnings, which is hardly the end of the universe. It was nice to keep it pigeon-holed in dollars and in the US (not least for the cashcard), but with Andy Ward chalking up a few tens of thousands of dollars at will, it looks as if I will still have a source of cheap currency conversion from pounds to dollars. If I only lose a little in the conversion from dollars to pounds, it's a relatively low cost of money.

What are the Stars conversion rates? I heard that these were quite good.

PJ

[countingmyouts.livejournal.com]

Hi Peter:

Reports are that Neteller is negotiating a settlement with the U.S. DOJ and that settlement will include Neteller will turn over all records to the IRS, ostensibly so that the IRS can go after poker players. Additionally, it appears that all current Neteller balances could be frozen for an indefinite period of time. The FBI is on record as saying that they would like them held as evidence in court.

Are you screwed? I'd speculate in the short-term you are since you have a U.S. account. Long-term, I would say you will get your money. However, with this witch hunt, I can't say that with any confidence.

At the rate this is spiraling out of control, I believe that there are going to be a lot of U.S. online poker players getting hammered by the IRS with big fines and possibly jail time. There are those that have made hundreds of thousands of dollars and never paid a cent in taxes. If I were those folks, I would be extremely concerned given the voracity of US DOJ's attack.

A sad end, indeed.

[(Anonymous)]

If you've made hundreds of thousands of dollars in the USA without paying US taxes, and you're still in the USA, perhaps the time has come to move? Sounds like you should be able to afford the fare.

Not being American, nor a poker player, nor in possession of hundreds of thousands of dollars, I can at least say that my problems are different.

However, the present US witch-hunt after poker players seems just another example of arbitrary government persecutions that occur worldwide. If you have the mobility to move on whenever your current government becomes inhospitable, you can weather these storms.

It becomes more difficult with a family in tow, but with sufficient motivation much is possible.

-- Jonathan

[countingmyouts.livejournal.com]

Hi, Jonathan:

I agree with everything that you said. Those who can and have made substantial money playing online poker are considering moving on to other locales. But knowing Americans, most will not actually do it. They would rather complain about it and take little or no action.

This witch hunt is just a part of a bigger problem here in the USA, where the USA has become a nanny state. I lament on nearly a daily basis the fact that the US Supreme Court voted to put our current POTUS in office in 2000 and the ignorance that re-elected him in 2004. His administration has set wheels in motion that will take years to unfuck when he leaves office. This online poker issue pales in comparison to other things that have been done, like the effective elimination of habeus corpus, the USA's standing in the world and inflaming the Middle East issue.

Michael

[peterbirks.livejournal.com]

Hi Jonathan:

As Michael said, a number of players are seeking new residences. Many Scandinavians who won a large amount in live tournaments (e.g Patrick Antonius) had, ironically, moved out of Scandinavia and into the US, where the tax treatment on gambling winnings was more lenient. I can see Switzerland, the Caymans and Costa Rica regaining their popularity as registered domiciles.

The odd thing about this "persecution" is that it is unclear whether it is driven by the religious right or by the pragmatic money-grabbers. I've long suspected that this was always really a revenue matter dressed up as a moral crusade, and, if the DOJ is really just pimping for the IRS, this would appear to confirm it.

The "moving" solution is a good one, although it has non-economic and economic frictional costs (friendships and the cost of moving). Also, the problem with arbitrary governments is that they are just that, arbitrary. Not for nothing do a few blogs and forums resonate to the sound of "I'm getting out, but where to?" Even the UK, ostensibly a gambler's paradise (particularly now that the courts have ruled the game I play to be a game of chance -- many thanks, Snaresbrook Crown Court) could suddenly decide that online gamblers are a different breed.

If you find a country more "relaxed" in some ways, it often has downsides on a more micro level (corrupt local police, for example), so you, as an individual, tend to be screwed anyway. It just differs on who is doing the screwing.

PJ

[(Anonymous)]

If one particular government is trying to take large amounts of your money, or put you in jail, or both, I'd have thought anywhere out of its jurisdiction might look rather attractive -- especially if you escape with enough money to live comfortably there while thinking about what to do next.

Admittedly, the idea of changing countries comes easily to me, I've been doing it all my life.

-- Jonathan

[peterbirks.livejournal.com]

Hi Michael:

Ahh, that's an interesting theory and it makes some kind of conspiratorial sense. Doesn't mean that it's true (it might just be liquidity problems converting three-month instruments into cash).

Anyway, I received a letter back from Neteller. It made quite intersting reading.

"Thank you for your email. We have taken a look at your account in regards to the situation.

At this time we are experiencing delays for all USD withdrawal requests, we do advise opening a new NETELLER account with a different currency to avoid any withdrawal delays or issues. Once this has been completed we can transfer your information to your new NETELLER account so you can request a withdrawal.

Since Neteller has a notoriously ropey conversion rate, this doesn't make much sense for me, as, if the US withdrawal route is eliminated, I would only be using the Neteller service to move cash between poker sites, at all of which I use dollars.

But the indication does appear to be that I'll get my cash eventually. Only $2.5K is "pending", while $1.6K just rests there earning no interest. I'm not particularly illiquid in any of the sites on which I currently play, so I can, if I want, ride it out for a year, just (hopefully!) building up the bankroll at the poker sites.


PJ

[countingmyouts.livejournal.com]

Hey, Peter:

I'd agree that it could be as simple as liquidity problems, which is my "on the record" speculation. It is likely just that, with the DOJ/FBI taking advantage of the situation and issuing statements as scare tactics.

At the end of the day, it's likely just a revenue issue here in the US driving all of this and it is dressed up as a moral issue, as you say (and with which I would agree). Politicians are very good at killing two birds with a single stone.

It appears that Neteller is giving you an out and that's good. As long as the sites stay open to the US, I also have more than enough to continue playing at my sites of choice without the necessity of trying to deposit. I cleaned out my Neteller account a few days before all of this hit the fan.

Still, this is all so very unnecessary...

Michael