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week middling
Sep. 8th, 2005 08:38 amA smallish recovery last night, and I seemed to accumulate bonus points quite quickly. Only an hour's play at a single table needed to clear the $200, although that will still leave me down on the whole deal.
It struck me last night that, although a lot is written about reverse implied odds (well, actually, not that much is written, because a lot of people don't understand it), no-one seems to have spotted that in current limit games at middle level and above, winning players spend most of their time suffering reverse implied odds, and they are happy so to do.
Take AK when you are in early position. You raise. You get one caller on the button. The situation now is that you will either win small or lose big - i.e., you have reverse implied odds and your opponent is in because he has implied odds.
Say flop comes T8x two diamonds. You have no diamonds. You bet again. Your opponent calls. Turn brings the nine of spades. You bet again, your opponent raises, and you can either at this point decide that if you hit an A or a K on the river you are good, or maybe even that your opponent is "at it" (in which case you might call or even reraise), or you decide that your opponent probably has at least two-pair, or something like AT, and you fold. River (if you stay in) brings a blank and you check-fold.
Either way, you have "lost big".
Alternative scenario. Same board, same bets. You bet turn, opponent folds. You have "won small".
The reason that this is fine in limit as that the difference between the "lose big" and the "win small" is just one big bet. Provided you win small just a little bit more often than you lose big, you will be in profit on the whole arrangement.
Now, in pot limit and no limit, this doesn't apply. One of the reasons that pot limit players can't adjust to limit is that they often don't grasp this concept. Implied odds are so ingrained in the brain of the pot limit player that it doesn't occur to him that if the gap between win small and lose big is minor, then you can live with reverse implied odds.
For players accustomed to limit, the opposite is true. Roswell (www.livejournal.com/users/roswell_42) has posted the hand where he went out of the short-handed WCOOP (and much credit to him for having the courage to do so). Roswell is quite capable of playing no limit, but pot limit seems to cause a short-wiring in the brain. Once again the disaster was caused by having AQ (in this case suited) in the small blind. A Gutshot post has a similar hand only a few weeks ago, with a similar result.
Even though Roswell realizes that First off all, in pot limit, I shouldn't make a big pot out of position with AQ, suited or not his hardwired thinking immediately follows with My pot bet on the flop was fine, but on the turn, I should have slowed down. .
By then, it was too late. The pot had been made too big already, not on the flop, when Roswell bet slightly less than the size of the pot, but preflop, when One guy limps and I have AsQs in the small blind. I raise the max which is 200..
Why did Roswell not check the turn? I hated the thought of checking, because that invites my opponent to steal this big pot.
But the big pot was created by that raise pre-flop. In limit, the raise here is automatic. And in No Limit, people seem to think ahead a bit more. But in Pot Limt, that "max raise" button is pressed automatically, without consideration of what might end up happening on the turn. AQ (suited or not), in the small blind is a great "keep it small as long as possible" hand. Once you start building the pot early with AQ (which in limit is the right thing to do, because you can live with the reverse implied odds) then you are in trouble, because in pot limit, you can't live with reverse implied odds.
It struck me last night that, although a lot is written about reverse implied odds (well, actually, not that much is written, because a lot of people don't understand it), no-one seems to have spotted that in current limit games at middle level and above, winning players spend most of their time suffering reverse implied odds, and they are happy so to do.
Take AK when you are in early position. You raise. You get one caller on the button. The situation now is that you will either win small or lose big - i.e., you have reverse implied odds and your opponent is in because he has implied odds.
Say flop comes T8x two diamonds. You have no diamonds. You bet again. Your opponent calls. Turn brings the nine of spades. You bet again, your opponent raises, and you can either at this point decide that if you hit an A or a K on the river you are good, or maybe even that your opponent is "at it" (in which case you might call or even reraise), or you decide that your opponent probably has at least two-pair, or something like AT, and you fold. River (if you stay in) brings a blank and you check-fold.
Either way, you have "lost big".
Alternative scenario. Same board, same bets. You bet turn, opponent folds. You have "won small".
The reason that this is fine in limit as that the difference between the "lose big" and the "win small" is just one big bet. Provided you win small just a little bit more often than you lose big, you will be in profit on the whole arrangement.
Now, in pot limit and no limit, this doesn't apply. One of the reasons that pot limit players can't adjust to limit is that they often don't grasp this concept. Implied odds are so ingrained in the brain of the pot limit player that it doesn't occur to him that if the gap between win small and lose big is minor, then you can live with reverse implied odds.
For players accustomed to limit, the opposite is true. Roswell (www.livejournal.com/users/roswell_42) has posted the hand where he went out of the short-handed WCOOP (and much credit to him for having the courage to do so). Roswell is quite capable of playing no limit, but pot limit seems to cause a short-wiring in the brain. Once again the disaster was caused by having AQ (in this case suited) in the small blind. A Gutshot post has a similar hand only a few weeks ago, with a similar result.
Even though Roswell realizes that First off all, in pot limit, I shouldn't make a big pot out of position with AQ, suited or not his hardwired thinking immediately follows with My pot bet on the flop was fine, but on the turn, I should have slowed down. .
By then, it was too late. The pot had been made too big already, not on the flop, when Roswell bet slightly less than the size of the pot, but preflop, when One guy limps and I have AsQs in the small blind. I raise the max which is 200..
Why did Roswell not check the turn? I hated the thought of checking, because that invites my opponent to steal this big pot.
But the big pot was created by that raise pre-flop. In limit, the raise here is automatic. And in No Limit, people seem to think ahead a bit more. But in Pot Limt, that "max raise" button is pressed automatically, without consideration of what might end up happening on the turn. AQ (suited or not), in the small blind is a great "keep it small as long as possible" hand. Once you start building the pot early with AQ (which in limit is the right thing to do, because you can live with the reverse implied odds) then you are in trouble, because in pot limit, you can't live with reverse implied odds.
