Radio 4

[peterbirks]

One thing with which even the most literate Americans seem to have trouble is the humble preposition. I'm not referring to such monstrosities as "different than", which at least has the merit of being in standard and consistent use in the US. What I mean is that the use of the right proposition in ordinary sentences often seems to throw them.

As with most things American, it's spreading to the UK. Radio Four just now stated that Honda workers would be going into work today "for the last time in four months". Huh? Sorry mate, but in June they will be going back to work for the first time in four months. You can't use the "in" to describe a future state of affairs.

I can only assume that the writer originally had "for the last time for four months" but decided that that three fours was one too many (see my play with language there? Waugh, eat your heart out.)

There then followed an interview with the wife of a worker at the Honda factory in Swindon who explained what the lay-off would mean to the family and how they were going to cope. Their strategy would be:

a) to reduce their Sky subscription package
b) go on to a lower mobile phone package
c) contact the mortgage company to try to reschedule debt repayments.


Actually I quite like the last one. Cope with the downturn by not paying off debts. It has a certain consistency with coping with the good times by ratcheting up the debts.


(Update) Half an hour later: Radio News changed to "will come into work today for their last shift until June". Clearly someone higher up the BBC editorial chain coughed into his tea when he heard the original phrasing.
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Comments

[jaybee66.livejournal.com]

My own gripe with the BBC is their inability to pronounce the simplest wysiwig language in Europe, Spanish.

http://the-goodlife.blogspot.com/2009/01/problem-with-spanish.html

[real-aardvark.livejournal.com]

What You See Is What I Get? Indeed.

I think the "last time in ..." is most probably related to the fact that American is not English but Deutschlish (or in the more literate instances, Yidlish). My German is atrocious, but I imagine that the equivalent phrase would use "seit" and the present tense, much as French might use "depuis" ... no, that doesn't look quite right. Anyway, my point is that it probably isn't ignorance as such (as with the deplorable "different than," which is almost official dialect in some parts of this benighted country. No Yank aid required here, ta very much). It's more likely to be a clash of linguistic cultures. There are probably dozens of German-language blogs out there right now complaining that the idiot English use "mit" when they mean "bei," and versa-vice.

I dread to think what the Ebonic equivalent might be. "They be goan to work for the lastest time in four mont's," perhaps.

Deutschlich

[peterbirks.livejournal.com]

You miss my point. This was a BBC News Announcer, not an American. Hence my point that the habit was spreading to these isles.

PJ

Re: Deutschlich

[real-aardvark.livejournal.com]

I believe your point (1) was:

"What I mean is that the use of the right proposition in ordinary sentences often seems to throw them [the Yanks]."

Thus my humble submission.

Agreed, your point (2) was:

"As with most things American, it's spreading to the UK."

This is a contentious proposition. Toasting people to death through obstinate persistence with Edison's faulty demonstration that Tesla was wrong and DC is really the safer way to transmit electricity has not, to the best of my limited knowledge, made appreciable inroads in to ("in to?" or "to?" or "wot?") the judicial system of the United Kingdom. Neither has a propensity to produce disgusting cheese, lousy bacon, and/or inadequate potatoes ("potahtos?").

Should you, perchance, be referring to "a plurality of cultural artefacts listed in a document which I do not at present have to hand, but which has been verified under oath by Senator McCarthy," then I would be forced to concede your point. Number two, that is.

In the absence of such a deposition, I fall back, m'lud, on the naive assertion that I felt it worthwhile, if only in a passing sense, to essay a jeu d'esprit on what, in any normal reading of the piece, would appear to be your main point, ie that which was stated prima facie. Although, I agree, ignorance of the workings of the Birks mind is no defence. (Or, indeed, defense.)

... Mind you, I stand four-square behind you in my abhorrence of the depraved and un-Reithian standards of the BBC in general. I have all but given up watching Newsnight in case my anguished screams cause the rather large vacuum tube in front of me to implode. (In this case, the lowered standards include faults in diction, coherence, mathematical comprehension, addressing the point made by the other person, and inviting Norman Lamont onto the program for any reason whatsoever. I can just about cope with the first four, but I have my limits.)

BTW: I think James is being a little unfair in his rankings of Hungarian and Turkish. Wonder what he thinks of Portuguese; or,as we have learned to call it since the mid-19th century, Brazilian?

Re: Deutschlich

[peterbirks.livejournal.com]

Yes, my phrasing could have been better. My actual point related to the BBC announcement, with the American thing thrown to the lions as a lead-in. You appear to have taken it as the main point of the argument.

Which it wasn't. Were it so, I would have:

(a) given it more thought and
(b) structured the whole thing differently.

But, as you say, how are you meant to know what is going on in my mind? I have a man from Autonomy coming into the office in the next couple of weeks. And I assume that I am going to have to try to work out what is going on in his, as well as the other way round. That should be fun.

PJ

Re: Deutschlich

[real-aardvark.livejournal.com]

Dear Lord, Autonomy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomy_Corporation). I had sincerely hoped that the share price collapse contingent on the puncturing of the dot-com bubble (and you'll note that they came up with this Bayesian crap before Google, which tells you all you need to know about its applicativity other than the dread pirate phrase "enterprise software") ought to have ... hang on, I'm losing track of my verbal moods here, never mind the fucking prepositions ... ought to have doomed the worthless cunts.

At least you're not being subjected to NLP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming).

Orwell was right. Mind you, I can just see the BBC comment on his application today:

"Thank you for your submission. Whilst it was most interesting, we regret to inform you that we cannot find a place for your views in our current schedule."

As for the in[e|a]ptly named Autonomy -- I mean, a gold-plated giveaway or what? -- I suggest you take Lily Tomlin's advice, which you will recall is as follows:

[Holding a can of Heinz Tomato Soup and a Warhol up to the audience]

"Soup, meet art.

Art, meet soup."

I suggest a goldfish bowl in your office/cubiculette would do the trick.

You can go back to No Limit Left-Handed Holdem now; I have no desire to spoil what little joy you have in life other than ranting at quasi-governmental organisations. Besides. It's more profitable.

Don't forget to publish the hi-lites...*

*[Wasn't that a really rotten gay two-tone Coventry threesome from the early '80s? My mind is going.]