The difficulties of multi-wayers

[peterbirks]

Given the times of day that I play and the sites on which I choose to play, I have to be careful to adjust to different styles on other sites at other times. This hand cropped up on Pacific last night and raised an interesting theoretical point to which I am not sure of the answer. The numbers are from memory, but the principle is the same.


SB: $30
BB: $50
UTG: $80 (48/9)
MP1: $40 (35/3)
MP2: $110 (29/2)
Hero: $100
MP4: $30 (66/5)
HJ: $110 (17/0)
CO: $90 (60/20)
BTN: $40 (33/10)


Dealt to hero: As Qh


SB posts 50c, BB posts $1.

UTG limps, MP1 limps, MP2 limps.


The first decision. Fold, call, or raise, and, if raise, how much?

I chose to raise to $7, mainly because that's an amount that tends to get rid of the speculative loose callers who have position on you. And although I think that AQo is probably winning, I don't really fancy it as a multi-wayer. I half-thought about raising to $6. If I raise to $5 I'm going to get loose callers and I've increased the size of the pot when OOP on the flop. I think that calling with AQo is better than a raise of $3 to $5 in this kind of game. Then you can let the hand go reltively cheaply if things go wrong, or have a go at controlling the pot size if things go semi-right. BTW, if the $7 is raised I think I'm chucking it away unless I'm getting huge odds (say, a mini-raise behind me and called round by thee players).

Loose player MP4 calls. This sets off the sequence of call from the Hi-Jack, fold from CO and button, fold from the blinds and calls from the two previous limpers.

Whoops.

So, here's the problem that I don't come up against in ordinary games that are usually heads up pre-flop. I already have a nigh-on $40 pot, with only $93 left in front of me. In effect, it's a short-stack game already and any thoughts of pot control are out of the window. Either I commit or I fold.

Flop comes semi-good, Qs 7s 2h There is $37 in the pot.

Checked to me. How much do I bet?

On the grounds that this is a fairly dry board, I decide, perhaps wrongly, to hit a roughly half-pot bet. This would be how much I would bet if it was a $8 pot and there were just two opponents. But is TPTK really strong enough to CB with a bet that effectively commits me?


I bet $19. Hi-Jack calls. All others fold. There's now $75 in the pot and I have $74 left. Opponent is the one tight player in the field, so I'm not happy about this. But his range includes many hands I could be beating. My action on the turn will be card-dependent.

Turn comes 6s, giving me a flush draw as well as TPTK. Of course, it might also give opponent the made flush.

Me to act first.

I go all-in, which is equal to a pot size bet. I reckon that this at least gives opponent a difficult decision (unless he's got the flush).

I have already got the feeling that I've gone wrong somewhere in this hand, but I can't quite put my finger on where. For a start, my flop bet seems based on one premise (that opponent might be on a draw) while my turn bet seems based on another (that he isn't). But that doesn't give me the answer on where I should take a different decision. Just throwing the AQ away preflop seems pathetic. Calling rather than raising also seems rather wimpish when it's quite possible that I'll get one caller on whom I have position. And I think that raising a small amount is worse than any of the other three choices.

I'd be interested on the views of others. before my next post, I'll tell you whether opponent folded or called.

+++++++++++++++++++++++

(EDIT) How-it-turned-out is at the bottom, as a reply to one of my own comments.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I would raise more pre, maybe up to $10. This should a)make the pot less multiway or b) make the post flop easier.

On the flop, I would tend to CB more, prolly 3/4 of the pot. I would only bet less if I was expecting it to provoke a reraise which I would gladly call.

So all of this would make the turn easier to play.

As played, the question comes down to the propensity of the Villain. If he is insanely tight, this could be a check pass. But this is unlikely. You are normally in great shape against a typical range, which will have a lot of QJ,QK, Q9 as well as under pairs floating. And of course, when you're behind, you're drawing good. So you're actually trying to maximise value here. This is either going to be a bet, or if the Villain likes to value bet, a check to induce a bet.

gl

bdd

[peterbirks.livejournal.com]

Although I'm not that happy with betting $10 into a $3.50 pot, (and I had expected thet $7 bet to have the impact you describe, Dave -- the multi-callers surprised me), with the knowledge that a lot of people will call $7, then $10 becomes better. Previously I would have thought that $10 would have had the effect of driving out all worse hands and only getting calls from better ones. But, with the benefit of the knowledge of subsequent events, one can see that this is not necessarily the case.

Perhaps AQ in these kind of games is a bit like JJ in early position -- the kind of hand that opponents will tend to play correctly against. Perhaps a bigger raise (which would not be right in the games that I normally play) is the best of a bad job.

PJ

PJ

[peterbirks.livejournal.com]

Of course, your point about the $10 bet is that it doesn't lan to be a $10 bet to win $3.50. It plans to be a $10 bet to win an average of $11.50 or thereabouts, since you expect a call from one of the limpers. The profitability of the play depends on how often those limpers call. And, as I say below, the argument that you will drive out worse hands and get calls from better ones assumes decent play from opponents -- an incorrect line in this type of game.

PJ

Not sure pushing makes sense

[(Anonymous)]

On turn you are pretty much in this for the duration give TPTK and nut draw and the amounts in your stack and the pot. Given that that's a given, I don't get the push. What hands are you going to get to fold? Any hand behind you is way way behind and will probably fold, hands even a bit ahead of you will probably call. Bottom two, no spade, might just fold, but maybe even not. Given that we accept you can't fold, I figure best line is to check or bet small (hoping that some thinks you are bluffing). Am I missing something?

-Sox

Re: Not sure pushing makes sense

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah I agree, I would check turn, with the intention of pushing over any bet (or calling). I would bet bigger on the turn too, with that much in the pot you have to go broke with TPTK

Re: Not sure pushing makes sense

[hectorjelly.livejournal.com]

Yeah I agree, I would check turn, with the intention of pushing over any bet (or calling). I would bet bigger on the turn too, with that much in the pot you have to go broke with TPTK

Re: Not sure pushing makes sense

[peterbirks.livejournal.com]

I don't think that you mean "would bet bigger on the turn", Hector. Presumably you mean the flop.

But if "I have to go broke with TPTK", then that's a bit of a comfort. It makes the hand clearer in my eyes. Obviously in games in the afterbnoon, going broke with TPTK is a big leak.

PJ

Re: Not sure pushing makes sense

[peterbirks.livejournal.com]

I would add a further point here that I think the, frequently propounded, line of "hands behind you will fold and hands ahead will call" is over-used.

Though it's a valid and important point, it implicitly assumes one thing and also often falls into a further common error.

What it implicitly assumes is that opponent is going to make sensible decisions, which often isn't the case. If a shove on the turn will get a call from someone with T8 and a flush draw, whereas a smaller bet will elicit a call and the river bet will then elicit a fold, then the shove on the turn is right.

This is partly formed by the error which I see a number of players make, which is that they subconsciously assume that (when they have a hand like an overpair) that their cards are face-up. Many the cry of "how could you call with only three outs?" is made, making no allowance for the fact that the caller is playing against a range, not two face-up cards.

So, although I take account of the "worse hands would fold, better hands would call" line, I treat it with more scepticism than most, and I would prefer a secondary argument to back up this line when advocating a particular line of play.

PJ

Re: Not sure pushing makes sense

[peterbirks.livejournal.com]

I think that this is a key point about the turn bet and I was vaguely aware of it the second that I pushed (it's one of the hazards of four-tabling, particulary on Pacific, that there's always a danger of you being timed out and folded). With the benefit of slow analysis, it's fairly clear that you are in a way ahead way behind situation. I suspect that something like a a bet of half my stack would get a better result in the long run.

PJ

Re: What happened:

[peterbirks.livejournal.com]

Opponent snap-called my shove and turned over

Ks Kh


Fortunately (for me) a spade came on the river (I'm saved by two queens, three aces and eight spades) and it was "Ship it to Pete" time.

Two thoughts occur to me here. One is that any guy who decides with Kings to flat-call a large raise pre-flop in this kind of game might actually FOLD in this situation without the spade "out" (which isn't an out at all, of course). The second is that I really should allow for players flat-calling with KK pre-flop -- claiming that, "an ace always comes on the flop when I raise with KK".

If the guy reraises to $30 or thereabouts, he saves himself an awful lot of post-flop problems where it's far too easy to make the wrong decision. (to take a common example, suppose I had JJ and the flop comes Axx. I lead out and win the pot). In this situation I fold to the reraise. If I have AK I am in a tough spot rather than him. If I have QQ I probably fold to such a tight player. With AA I have to shove and he can think about getting away from the hand. In fact a holding for me of AA is just about the only situation where a flat-call is right, because I might have to slow down with other opponents in play.

[(Anonymous)]

Hohum Im rather late on this one but I think the hand was played in an exemplary manner from start to finish.

AQ is an excellent hand for 'attacking limpers'. Considering calling with it is the wrong approach in my opinion. With a few weak limpers I think you should be widening your pre-flop raising range a bit. I dont see any reason to raise more or less than than a pot-sized raise (which would be 6.50) so 7 seems perfect. You've hit the flop with TPTK so betting seems appropriate and although with deeper stacks I might have said a little more your bet leaves you with a pot-sized bet on the turn which is fine.

Against a single opponent you still have every reason to believe you are good with plenty of outs if not so again betting seems correct. Those jokers who don't like the turn bet are partly being influenced by the fact it's allin - irrelevant - or are labouring under the massive misapprehension that the aim of poker is to make the other guy fold rather than pay you off. You're never making a better hand fold it's true (no he isnt folding KK, get real) but many worse hands will call. Checking is wrong since better hands will certainly bet and a river scare card may well kill your action or prevent a draw paying to see river. [Against a very aggressive bluffer it might be right, but not a passive rock.]

matt

[peterbirks.livejournal.com]

Your point that a river card will kill the hand is well taken.

I don't agree with your line that "better hands will certainly bet". I've been amazed at some checks behind in situations such as this (if, for example, I've CB'ed the flop on a draw and then checked the turn because my draw has missed). Passive players can find all kind of excuses not to bet. As you have noted in the past, I should know... :-)

In these situations I've often adopted a strategy of betting two-thirds of opponent's stack on the turn. Effectively this commits opponent while not giving him implied odds if he is on a draw. It's also a neat bet level because, although opponent will often call the smaller turn bet (where he would have folded to a bet putting him all-in) with the intention of "getting away" from the hand on the river, he then discoveres that his call on the river is such a small proportion of the pot that he might as well put it in anyway.

This works well in this situation if opponent has something like QJs or KQ, I think (althogh KQ is probably calling the all-in on the turn).


Leaving myself a pot bet on the turn is good if it puts opponent on the spot on the turn, but the problem with this board is that it's unlikely that opponent is going to be in much of a spot. KQ perhaps, QJ perhaps. But apart from that, I think he normally has an automatic call or an automatic fold (not withstanding KQ and QJ). I think a bigger bet on the flop is good.

And I quite like this bigger preflop bet (I actually tried it tonight with AK a couple of times). If one opponent is willing to come along for the ride, it strikes me as a good bet. If you will only generate folds except from premium hole cards, then it's not so good.

PJ


PJ